From phillip.watts at anvilcom.com Mon Jun 18 20:17:27 2007 From: phillip.watts at anvilcom.com (phil) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:17:27 -0500 Subject: [Skencil-users] seg fault Message-ID: <200706181317.27445.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> I have the latest Kubuntu/Debian. Using apt-get I installed python PIL and skencil. tcl and tk 8.4 appear to be installed. When I run skencil I get a segmentation fault after a few seconds, I think after it has loaded Sketch. No other messages. Seg fault rare in Pyhton! Ideas? Thanks. From hilbricht at linopus.de Tue Jun 19 08:41:29 2007 From: hilbricht at linopus.de (Tobias Hilbricht) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:41:29 +0200 Subject: [Skencil-users] seg fault In-Reply-To: <200706181317.27445.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> References: <200706181317.27445.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> Message-ID: <1182235289.5511.5.camel@phoebus> Am Montag, den 18.06.2007, 13:17 -0500 schrieb phil: > latest Kubuntu/Debian. > > I installed python PIL and skencil. > > When I run skencil I get a segmentation fault Hello Phil, I have here Skencil on Ubuntu Dapper (6.06) running. Dapper comes with Python 2.4. Is Skencil on more recent Ubuntu versions installed with Python 2.4, or is Python 2.5 present? If I remember correctly Skencil 0.6.17 does not work with Python 2.5. Yours sincerely Tobias Hilbricht From bernhard at intevation.de Thu Jun 21 21:24:38 2007 From: bernhard at intevation.de (Bernhard Reiter) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 21:24:38 +0200 Subject: [Skencil-users] Join forces for skencil1/sK1? In-Reply-To: <23f7fc190705290544l19705f73je3ec747c6b33908a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061107144452.GA16203@rcpc42.vub.ac.be> <200705171313.48598.bernhard@intevation.de> <23f7fc190705290544l19705f73je3ec747c6b33908a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706212124.38471.bernhard@intevation.de> Igor, On Tuesday 29 May 2007 14:44, Igor Novikov wrote: > To avoid these problems we substituted pyXML by built-in Python SAX parser. wonderful, thanks! Bernhard -- Managing Director - Owner: www.intevation.net (Free Software Company) Germany Coordinator: fsfeurope.org. Coordinator: www.Kolab-Konsortium.com. Intevation GmbH, Osnabr?ck, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabr?ck, HRB 18998 Gesch?ftsf?hrer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.wald.intevation.org/pipermail/skencil-users/attachments/20070621/a80bf186/attachment.pgp From bernhard at intevation.de Thu Jun 21 21:44:04 2007 From: bernhard at intevation.de (Bernhard Reiter) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 21:44:04 +0200 Subject: [Skencil-users] Fwd: Join forces for skencil1/sK1? In-Reply-To: <23f7fc190705220140u1713d600lfe0020d5f681cc7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061107144452.GA16203@rcpc42.vub.ac.be> <23f7fc190705220139h417b9cbfr51f820a70d24cad@mail.gmail.com> <23f7fc190705220140u1713d600lfe0020d5f681cc7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706212144.07903.bernhard@intevation.de> Hi Igor, sorry that it took a bit to respond, actually I wanted to get Bernhard H. to comment, but he first wants to look at the code, in this respect he is a lot more a code then I am. But anyway, here is my braindump: On Tuesday 22 May 2007 10:40, Igor Novikov wrote: > I had already put on some of the questions. > > > What name to use, and what strategy to pursue regarding > > the now available three esisting ends skencil 0.6, sk1, skencil 0.7. > > Then we need to find the best infrastructure for it. > > My suggestion is using "sK1" name for latest branch, because: > 1. This code is highly differ from 0.6/0.7 versions I believe this is tightly coupled with the question of how many branched we keep alive. See below. > 2. This code name is already announced as in Russian community and in west > open source world. > 3. This name is derived from Sketch Skencil is quite introduced as well, though I agree that sK1 is a stylish name that is derived from it and its file format. > 4. New name simplifies attracting new users. Unfortunately users choice > first of all a modern UI and we often hear: "Skencil? Oh, it's an ugly > Motif-style application. My choice is Inkscape/Xara/Karbon" So, even > Skencil v1.0 ?will not ?attract quickly large user pool. The same > "reanimation" problem is highly important for tcl/tk widgetset. Maybe, Skencil's reputation is not that bad I believe, but that depends on whom you ask. It is true that Skencil's strength usually are a bit hidden. > Regarding strategy I think that all three branches should be alive. As far > as I understand Skencil v0.6 engine is used in production, therefore this > branch should be supported. I'm not familiar with pyGtk therefore I cannot > evaluate Gtk-based v0.7 usability as a base for derived products, but it > seems it can be used as whole product and a part of pyGtk-based > applications. I think we should unite behind one branch, because our community is not large enough to support too many branches. It is a lot easier to join forces, even when this might a bit strainful in the beginning. As far as I have understood the v0.7 branch was to improve several things in the user interface and the implementation. However it never hit the road, thus even BH agrees that we do not necessarily need to keep it. Maintenance of 0.6 could be done at a minimum and even here BH did not get around doing much for it, so we could make the most active branch "sK1" the main branch. I think it would ideally use some analysing of BH's improvements since sK1 was forked in both branches and an effort to merge them. That BH did not do much development on the two branches also means it was less fun to him for whatever reasons. Merging his ideas in would raise the chance a bit of getting him to contribute a bit in the future again. Also if he and others in the Skencil community enbrance all one branch this would certainly be important for those that admire BH's great work on Skencil. > I cannot say that sK1 code can serve as reusable package, because sK1 > primary goal is a mature vector graphics editor. Also sK1 code is still > unperfect and requires further development. But even in current state sK1 > can be presented as unique open source application for prepress. BTW I prefer the term "Free Software" over "open source", for reasons see http://www.fsfeurope.org/documents/whyfs.en.html The goals of a "mature vector graphics editor" seems to be compatible with Skencil's goal, unless somebody comes and want to use it as component, I do not think we should make provisions for it. That the separation of model-view-controler would enable something like skconvert to be run in scripts is quite cool, so I would like to keep or extend this as another goal. > Only Scribus has similar features, but this application is not illustration > program. So, my personal view of sK1 future is a competitor of CorelDRAW > but on Linux platform. And future users pool should grow from former > CorelDRAW users. Well it would be cool if we could target windows as well as GNU/Linux and X11 running plattform and even MacOS-X. Tcl/tk is pretty portable and pyGTK was as well in the past, so this should be doable. But this is more a personal goal. Having a great application for GNU/Linux is a huge plus as well. > Inkscape Team also declared that it's application is something like > CorelDRAW or Illustrator, but on my opinion Inkscape is more similar to > specialized editor like Macromedia Flash (at least on current development > stage). I cannot really judge, because I did not really use Inkscape a lot. My next implementation target with Skencil (or sK1) or whatever would be to add the map extension for the Thuban-Map-SVG. (Check out my svg export extension for thuban.intevation.org ). You did not answer the questions about the development infrastructure and platform. Actually I think wald.intevation.org is not too bad and we will keep improving it at Intevation because we need it for other projects and we would be independent. Best, Bernhard -- Managing Director - Owner: www.intevation.net (Free Software Company) Germany Coordinator: fsfeurope.org. Coordinator: www.Kolab-Konsortium.com. Intevation GmbH, Osnabr?ck, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabr?ck, HRB 18998 Gesch?ftsf?hrer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.wald.intevation.org/pipermail/skencil-users/attachments/20070621/7ddddc1b/attachment.pgp From wbaxter at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 02:27:23 2007 From: wbaxter at gmail.com (Bill Baxter) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 09:27:23 +0900 Subject: [Skencil-users] Fwd: Join forces for skencil1/sK1? In-Reply-To: <200706212144.07903.bernhard@intevation.de> References: <20061107144452.GA16203@rcpc42.vub.ac.be> <23f7fc190705220139h417b9cbfr51f820a70d24cad@mail.gmail.com> <23f7fc190705220140u1713d600lfe0020d5f681cc7c@mail.gmail.com> <200706212144.07903.bernhard@intevation.de> Message-ID: On 6/22/07, Bernhard Reiter wrote: > > > My suggestion is using "sK1" name for latest branch, because: > > 1. This code is highly differ from 0.6/0.7 versions > > I believe this is tightly coupled with the question of how many > branched we keep alive. See below. > > > 2. This code name is already announced as in Russian community and in > west > > open source world. > > 3. This name is derived from Sketch > > Skencil is quite introduced as well, though I agree that sK1 is a stylish > name that is derived from it and its file format. Just an outsider's opinion here, but Skencil is a much nicer name if you ask me. It immediately suggests a program that has something to do with drawing. sK1 by itself suggests absolutely nothing. I could see using sK1 as a subtitle maybe. Something like "Skencil : sK1" to differentiate it from "Skencil : Classic", but just branding the thing "sK1" seems like a bad idea. The goals of a "mature vector graphics editor" seems to be compatible > with Skencil's goal, unless somebody comes and want to use it as > component, > I do not think we should make provisions for it. > That the separation of model-view-controler would enable > something like skconvert to be run in scripts is quite cool, so I would > like > to keep or extend this as another goal. Being available to use as a component would fill a niche that isn't currently served. I'm currently writing my own vector drawing program from scratch because I couldn't find a decent component to build on. Still, it is quite a small niche, so it may not be worth the effort to create a good clean component design just to serve that niche. Of course creating a design with clean separation is a good idea anyway, it just takes more time. > Only Scribus has similar features, but this application is not > illustration > > program. Right, I think Scribus aims to be more a of a Quark wannabe. So, my personal view of sK1 future is a competitor of CorelDRAW > > but on Linux platform. And future users pool should grow from former > > CorelDRAW users. > > Well it would be cool if we could target windows as well as GNU/Linux > and X11 running plattform and even MacOS-X. Tcl/tk is pretty portable > and pyGTK was as well in the past, so this should be doable. > But this is more a personal goal. Having a great application for GNU/Linux > is a huge plus as well. I agree. But I'm a big advocate for doing everything cross-platform, always. There's no good reason to arbitrarily cut off 80% of the potential users in the world by being Linux-only. Or even cutting off 20% by being Windows only. Unless your app is so OS-specific that a port wouldn't make sense. Say, something like a Gnome desktop configurator, or an app where 80% of the code is platform-specific and would have to be rewritten per-platform anyway. But for everything else, it might as well be written cross-platform, or at least factored from the beginning with cross-platform in mind. (That's why wxWidgets is my GUI of choice.) > Inkscape Team also declared that it's application is something like > > CorelDRAW or Illustrator, but on my opinion Inkscape is more similar to > > specialized editor like Macromedia Flash (at least on current > development > > stage). > > I cannot really judge, because I did not really use Inkscape a lot. > My next implementation target with Skencil (or sK1) or whatever would > be to add the map extension for the Thuban-Map-SVG. (Check out my svg > export > extension for thuban.intevation.org ). Hmm. I'm a beginner at both, but to me Inkscape is much more usable than Skencil right now. And I strongly disagree with the assessment that Inkscape is a Flash competitor. It doesn't even support animation right now, so claiming it competes with Flash is just silly. It is most definitely a CorelDRAW/Illustrator competitor. It may gain animation features in the future, but right now it is a vector drawing program, plain and simple. And it works cross-platform via GTK ports. The main thing that limits Inkscape's potential in my opinion is that it is actually an SVG editor, as opposed to a general-purpose vector drawing program. If the feature doesn't exist in the SVG spec, it won't be added to Inkscape. Of course if your goal is to export SVG this is not a limitation at all -- it's a huge feature. And SVG at some level aims to be a general purpose vector drawing description language. So if it makes sense for an application to want to do it, chances are that it will be added to the SVG spec eventually, even if it isn't there currently. Some of the Inkscape devs are actually involved in the W3C SVG group. Anyway, these are just my two cents. I tried both Skencil and Inskcape at the same time. I had trouble figuring out how to do much of anything with Skencil (after getting past the troubles I had just installing it), but I found it very easy to use (and install) Inkscape. When I look at Skencil and Inkscape side-by-side, I seriously have to ask myself "what is the point of skencil?" Inkscape is cross plaform, well-thought-out UI, lots of features, pluggable script extensions in multiple languages (but mainly Python), written in C/C++ (==pretty fast and also easy installation), pretty many decent tutorials available. Uses GTK just like Skencil (so unfortunately both look equally ugly and alien on Windows and Mac). So the main thing that seems to differentiate Skencil is that it's in Python (except the low-level stuff, which seems to be X-Windows-specific C extension modules). And maybe also the fact that Skencil doesn't care about SVG compatibility, so it is less constrained in how it can evolve. I could definitely see Skencil catching up to Inkscape in a year or so, thanks to the speed and ease of pure Python development. But on the other hand, being Linux-only restricts the pool of potential developers who might take an interest in the project and decide to contribute. Quite a few of the Inkscape contributors come from the Windows world (including me -- I've already made a couple of contributions to Inkscape now, developed on Windows). Anyway, just my outsider's opinion. Inkscape is most definitely head-to-head with Skencil, so I don't think you should ignore it. You should study it. See what you can learn from it. First you must clearly decide for yourselves what it is that Skencil does, or will do, better than Inkscape, and then clearly explain to the world on the basis of that why we should rush to use and support Skencil rather than Inkscape. I'll just conclude by noting that if all other things were equal about Skencil and Inkscape (features and cross-platform issues), then I would *definitely* prefer to work on Skencil because GTK+ is terribly painful to work with. Inkscape is slowly converting over to GTKmm/C++ which is a little better. But neither can hold a candle to Python for ease of development. This post isn't meant to be discouraging. Quite the opposite. I think you're a little behind Inskcape right now, but if you focus on making Skencil easily available to the widest audience possible (I.e. port it to Win and Mac, and make sure installation is smooth and simple everywhere), I think the ease of working with Python will help lure in more developers and accelerate the pace of Skencil development to the point where it can rocket past Inkscape. Regards, --bb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wald.intevation.org/pipermail/skencil-users/attachments/20070622/f14823c2/attachment-0001.html From hilbricht at linopus.de Fri Jun 22 11:25:11 2007 From: hilbricht at linopus.de (Tobias Hilbricht) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:25:11 +0200 Subject: [Skencil-users] Fwd: Join forces for skencil1/sK1? In-Reply-To: <200706212144.07903.bernhard@intevation.de> References: <20061107144452.GA16203@rcpc42.vub.ac.be> <23f7fc190705220139h417b9cbfr51f820a70d24cad@mail.gmail.com> <23f7fc190705220140u1713d600lfe0020d5f681cc7c@mail.gmail.com> <200706212144.07903.bernhard@intevation.de> Message-ID: <1182504312.11766.32.camel@phoebus> Am Donnerstag, den 21.06.2007, 21:44 +0200 schrieb Bernhard Reiter: > > 2. This code name is already announced as in Russian community and in west > > open source world. > > 3. This name is derived from Sketch > > Skencil is quite introduced as well, though I agree that sK1 is a stylish > name that is derived from it and its file format. > > > 4. New name simplifies attracting new users. Unfortunately users choice > > first of all a modern UI and we often hear: "Skencil? Oh, it's an ugly > > Motif-style application. My choice is Inkscape/Xara/Karbon" So, even > > Skencil v1.0 will not attract quickly large user pool. The same > > "reanimation" problem is highly important for tcl/tk widgetset. > > Maybe, Skencil's reputation is not that bad I believe, but that depends > on whom you ask. It is true that Skencil's strength usually are a bit hidden. Although I clearly see and welcome the initiative Igor took - the improvements he is working on are the really necessary ones -, I prefer with regard to the names Skencil over sK1 for the following reasons: * Skencil is a more attractive and imaginative name compared to sK1, which sounds very technical. With a name like sK1 I think of a TV channel (like Sat1 or Pro7 here) or of cars which are targetted at male customers (like BMW X5), or with the abbreviations biologists use for gene names. * Skencil _has_ a user community, while sK1 has none yet. There are printed and online documents for Skencil, while sK1 is known to a small circle of developers only. "Motif-style application" - this is last important argument against Skencil. There are many commercial applications in the DTP field which have a very sober functional GUI and which are used for the sake of their function and not their stylish themes. * Domain and trade names - just google for sk1, and there are other domains using sk1 in their names. Is it known if sK1 is used as a trade name somewhere? If this can not be excluded for sure, this could pose a problem any time in future. Yours sincerely Tobias Hilbricht From hilbricht at linopus.de Fri Jun 22 12:20:46 2007 From: hilbricht at linopus.de (Tobias Hilbricht) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:20:46 +0200 Subject: [Skencil-users] Fwd: Join forces for skencil1/sK1? In-Reply-To: References: <20061107144452.GA16203@rcpc42.vub.ac.be> <23f7fc190705220139h417b9cbfr51f820a70d24cad@mail.gmail.com> <23f7fc190705220140u1713d600lfe0020d5f681cc7c@mail.gmail.com> <200706212144.07903.bernhard@intevation.de> Message-ID: <1182507646.11766.63.camel@phoebus> Am Freitag, den 22.06.2007, 09:27 +0900 schrieb Bill Baxter: > Well it would be cool if we could target windows as well as > GNU/Linux > and X11 running plattform and even MacOS-X. > > There's no good reason to arbitrarily cut off 80% of the potential > users in the world by being Linux-only. This is very true. > Hmm. I'm a beginner at both, but to me Inkscape is much more usable > than Skencil right now. Inkscape is slower and more instable compared to Skencil. Additionally, Skencil has the skLaTeX-plugin, which brings the LaTeX typesetting capabilities into Skencil, which is another point why I prefer Skencil over Inkscape. > I found it very easy to use (and install) Inkscape. As far as installation is concerned I agree. As far as non-skLaTeX-Text and font installation is concerned, I also agree that using Inkscape is easier to use. But drawing and manipulating paths I like better in Skencil. > Inkscape lots of features, pluggable script extensions Skencil gets a lot of additional features using pluggins, too! > pretty many decent tutorials available This is also true for Skencil, to my knowledge in English, French and German. > Uses GTK just like Skencil (so unfortunately both look equally ugly > and alien on Windows and Mac). I am referring to Skencil 0.6.17, which uses tk. The look of the GUI is not an important aspect to me. More important are installation, usability (including antialiasing) and prepress capability, and I see big improvements there with sK1 due to Igors work. > Quite a few of the Inkscape contributors come from the Windows world > (including me -- I've already made a couple of contributions to > Inkscape now, developed on Windows). > > Anyway, just my outsider's opinion. If you have contributed to Inkscape already, then you are neither beginner nor outsider. > Inkscape is most definitely head-to-head with Skencil, so I don't > think you should ignore it. You should study it. See what you can > learn from it. I think Igor is moving in the right direction. But I agree with you that Skencil is a better name than sK1. Yours sincerely Tobias Hilbricht From phillip.watts at anvilcom.com Sun Jun 24 21:13:27 2007 From: phillip.watts at anvilcom.com (phil) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:13:27 -0500 Subject: [Skencil-users] seg fault Message-ID: <200706241413.27975.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> I am new to skencil. Running Kubuntu feisty. Skencil didn't get very far with python2.5 so I installed python 2.4.4 Now it gives a lot of warnings that the python C API has a version mismatch with intl and pax and streamfilter and paxtkinter, etc. Then does a segmentation fault. I've no clue where to start. Any ideas? Thanks From hilbricht at linopus.de Mon Jun 25 09:19:54 2007 From: hilbricht at linopus.de (Tobias Hilbricht) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:19:54 +0200 Subject: [Skencil-users] seg fault In-Reply-To: <200706241413.27975.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> References: <200706241413.27975.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> Message-ID: <1182755994.5514.15.camel@phoebus> Am Sonntag, den 24.06.2007, 14:13 -0500 schrieb phil: > I am new to skencil. > Running Kubuntu feisty. > > Skencil didn't get very far with python2.5 > so I installed python 2.4.4 > Now it gives a lot of warnings that the python C API > has a version mismatch with intl and pax and streamfilter > and paxtkinter, etc. Then does a segmentation fault. What output do you get when you type the command python -V in a terminal? If the output is not "Python 2.4.4" but something like "Python 2.5.x", then you have installed Python 2.4.4, but it is not used as default. In that case I would try to adapt /usr/bin/skencil to point to Python 2.4.4 Yours sincerely Tobias Hilbricht From bh at intevation.de Mon Jun 25 13:58:24 2007 From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:58:24 +0200 Subject: [Skencil-users] seg fault In-Reply-To: <200706241413.27975.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> (phil's message of "Sun\, 24 Jun 2007 14\:13\:27 -0500") References: <200706241413.27975.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> Message-ID: phil writes: > Skencil didn't get very far with python2.5 > so I installed python 2.4.4 > Now it gives a lot of warnings that the python C API > has a version mismatch with intl and pax and streamfilter > and paxtkinter, etc. Then does a segmentation fault. Did you recompile Skencil? The warnings mean that compiled the modules with a python version different from the one you use to run the program. Bernhard -- Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ Skencil http://skencil.org/ Thuban http://thuban.intevation.org/ From phillip.watts at anvilcom.com Mon Jun 25 15:29:14 2007 From: phillip.watts at anvilcom.com (phil) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:29:14 -0500 Subject: [Skencil-users] Skencil-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706250829.14325.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> > What output do you get when you type the command python -V in a > terminal? If the output is not "Python 2.4.4" but something like "Python > 2.5.x", then you have installed Python 2.4.4, but it is not used as > default. In that case I would try to adapt /usr/bin/skencil to point to > Python 2.4.4 > > Yours sincerely > > Tobias Hilbricht Yes the command python gives python 2.4.4 Also skencil gets a lot further than when python meant 2.5. It now gives me a bunch of version mismatch warnings before the seg fault. So, is everone running skencil with python 2.4.4 succeeding? From phillip.watts at anvilcom.com Mon Jun 25 15:51:04 2007 From: phillip.watts at anvilcom.com (phil) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:51:04 -0500 Subject: [Skencil-users] seg fault Message-ID: <200706250851.04800.phillip.watts@anvilcom.com> I didn't compile skencil. I installed binaries with apt-get. I guess I should uninstall, download source and compile. Thanks. From bernhard at intevation.de Wed Jun 27 18:48:05 2007 From: bernhard at intevation.de (Bernhard Reiter) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:48:05 +0200 Subject: [Skencil-users] Fwd: Join forces for skencil1/sK1? In-Reply-To: <1182507646.11766.63.camel@phoebus> References: <20061107144452.GA16203@rcpc42.vub.ac.be> <1182507646.11766.63.camel@phoebus> Message-ID: <200706271848.12001.bernhard@intevation.de> On Friday 22 June 2007 12:20, Tobias Hilbricht wrote: > I am referring to Skencil 0.6.17, which uses tk. The look of the GUI is > not an important aspect to me. More important are installation, Note that installation ease has to do a lot with packaging and Skencil packaging has seen some work recently especially for Debian and Mandriva. It is not as good as it could be, especially some of the nicer plugins are not shipped by default yet, but it clearly is important. So keep pushing for good Skencil packages in your distribution. :) Bernhard -- Managing Director - Owner: www.intevation.net (Free Software Company) Germany Coordinator: fsfeurope.org. Coordinator: www.Kolab-Konsortium.com. Intevation GmbH, Osnabr?ck, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabr?ck, HRB 18998 Gesch?ftsf?hrer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.wald.intevation.org/pipermail/skencil-users/attachments/20070627/daf334c6/attachment.pgp